trespass and assault at the build

The CRVL mods posted a thread about a sexual assault that is reported from the fall van build.  That thread pointed to a post in a Women’s Only thread.

There are several things I will say here.  I can’t say them in that thread (men not allowed) and won’t say them elsewhere on the forum as I am trying to be less of a nitpick on the forum.   I will not included usernames below because I am interested in engaging the ideas and not the individual.

Before I start let me lay out what I believe:

• I believe in rule of law

• I believe in liberty

• I believe in exclusive right to private property, including one’s own body

• I believe that individuals can make agreements between them.

• I believe in the universalization of ethics:  moral pronouncements are most valid when general and least valid when specific to a particular group.  Having different standards for different groups is literally what privilege (private law) means.

• I believe in equality, in both in the opportunity and responsibility.  I believe in quality so consistently that it frustrates people around me who are accustomed to making exceptions for various groups.

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CV, who was trespassed and assaulted, is the one making the most sense in all of this.  She is welcome around my campfire.

Every woman here needs to know the name of this perp.

Every person needs to know the name of the perp.  The right time to publish the name is when he is charged (and he should be).    I support passing the name around privately before then.

We all deserve to be able to protect ourselves....and a guy that does this...yeah..we all need to know his name and handle here.

Yes, everyone should be able to protect themselves.  And it’s not just guys who trespass and assault.  And we don’t know that he is a CRVL member.

Imagine when this happens again...and the woman involved was not given the information that could have saved her from this?

I am against trespass and assault no matter the gender of the victim.

The thing that troubles me is, my knee-jerk reaction would be to get my gun.

My knee-jerk reaction is if you have to go get your gun then it’s too far away!  A holstered sidearm is a useful sidearm.

I applaud CV for having a knife nearby and for pulling it.  I would shed no tears for anyone who gets stabbed in the commission of trespass and assault.

I would’ve shot him dead without hesitation.

Bravado is not the sole domain of menfolk, and does not help the victim deal with the aftermath any better.  It comes off as second-guessing.

I’m sure the guys at the build didn’t hesitate to sleep with their doors open, it’s sad that women feel they can’t now either.

Just because men do things without obvious fear it doesn’t mean we have no concerns.   Rather, men consider risks and take steps to minimize them;  men navigate risk the way fish swim through water.

We are socialized to do this.   A man does not, after all, attract a suitable mate by feeling scared.

I'm disappointed in: the assaulter who did it, the victim who didn't report it, and the build host who didn't kick him out of the area.

Agreed.    I don’t know that I’m disappointed in the non-report, but the failure to report will not help anyone now or in the future.

nobody, man or woman, should be sleeping with their doors open or unlocked in the world we live in today

Should is a word that tells others what to do.  I try not to use that word.  But it is encumbent on those who do sleep with doors open or unlocked to be aware of the risks/rewards and plan appropriately.

He should be outted and shunned by the entire community, at the very least.

Assuming we know who he is and that he did it.  I bring this up because it is the difference between Rule of Law and a lynch mob.

An open door is NOT an invitation to being assaulted and it never will be.

Agreed.  It’s not even an invitation to enter the property.

The world will never be a safe place for women until all the "good men" demand it!

A rousing cry but there are problems packed in there.

• the world is not a safe place for anyone

• this assumes women do not have agency and cannot demand the terms of their treatment, or that men have some magical way to make their world safe

• this assumes that women do not trespass and assault

• it assumes men are not trespassed and assaulted

Men have no duty to provide security services based on their biology, just as women have no duty to provide services based on their biology.

To offer their physical services without their permission (or to coerce them into doing something) is disrespectful.  You don’t want a woman’s physical services to be offered by another or coerced, right?

It is time for men to step outside the "thin blue line" & police their own

This is an abhorrent statement;  it suggests that men are protecting criminals in their midst.  And again suggests that women do not trespass and assault.  Indeed, a woman assaulted CV recently and was arrested.

If you think men are harboring criminals in their midst then it would be wise to avoid men altogether.   Perhaps it is time for an all-woman van build?

A good man's silence can be deadly for women.

Good peoples’ silence can be deadly for others.   I reject the notion that one sub-group owes any other sub-group some duty in the absence of agreement to that effect.

Jamie was wrong not to toss the offender out on his ear---but so was every other man in the group. This has got to change. Now.

Men as a groups are not responsible for the removal of criminals from a location.  We are not security guards that can be summoned for duty.  Just as women are not required to perform services just because some men think they ought to.

The best course of action would be to call law enforcement.

"An upstanding man wouldn't enable another."

An upstanding person wouldn’t enable another.

NO is complete sentence. You don't have to explain, or justify or feel sorry for a person with violence on their mind.

Absolutely.

There was at least one incident at an rtr. Police came and hauled them off. Good on whoever took care of that!

Preach!  And anyone can call 911.

i wondered whether someone could be prosecuted for slander/libel for posting a video showing the "possible" offender without due process of law ??

Or even writing it in public.  This is why I say the arrest report is the right place to get/publish the info.

There will be no process of law. Nobody is pressing charges and he apologized to all the women involved and it satisfied them evidently.

Generally speaking, choosing not to report but then prodding men to handle it within their own group means choosing vigilantism over rule of law.  It also illustrates that one is willing to endanger members of another group to protect one’s own group.   I am against such things.

But, as she says, every woman has to decide for herself how she will handle something like this.

Agreed that every person has to make the decision.

Note that such a decision does not obligate others to provide extra-legal services.

when women feel like they can't talk about sexual assault or vlog about it because of the worry of being made to blame, it didn't really happen or any other negative that could come from voicing it.

Not sure I understand this.

First of all, I don’t think anyone else can control what a person feels.  That happens entirely in their own heart.

Second, post all you want, just be aware there can be legal risks to publishing accusations.  Be smart about it.  Press charges then publish the report.   Feelings will not influence a judge.

Ladies, don't ever feel like you cannot say, in any media.. what has happened to you whether it was from the past or going on currently.

More feelings.  You can say what you want but some things are actionable. _ Thinking_ produces results, improvement, civilization;  feeling produces drama.

This type of incident happened at a dispersed camping event in Northern AZ last summer and a few real men in our group told the perp that he was to leave or the rangers would be called. He left. That is as it should be.

Real men, huh?  What if I were to say that “real women press charges”?  Offensive?  Yeah.  Untrue?  Yeah, just like the statement above.

Men have no duty to provide security services based on their biology, just as women have no duty to provide services based on their biology.

The person who harassed and assaulted the women at Jamie's van build will and should be labeled. We want to make sure that such a label is accurately placed. It would be a grievous mistake if some man was misidentified and wrongly labeled.

A reasonable position, although an unpopular one.

This problem has been going on for a couple of hundred thousand years, and not much has changed. And it's not really going to change. Deep down, a few (edited due to unnecessary generalizations) men feel that they have the right to do as they please.

Looks to me like the original text was “Deep down, men feel that they have the right to do as they please.“  Obnoxious, but not what I want to address.

All consensual activities are cool.  Non-consensual ones are not, and that goes for both genders.